>> HASKINS: Coming up on
"Theater Talk"...
>> GREEN: So, as part of your
process in rehearsals,
did you have to spend a lot of
time watching each other?
I mean, of course, you do in
rehearsals, watch each other.
>> JACKSON: Well, we've
nowhere else to go.
We're all on stage all the time.
[ Laughter ]
♪♪
♪♪
♪♪
>> HASKINS: From New York City,
this is "Theater Talk."
I'm Susan Haskins.
And I am joined by my
co-host, Jesse Green,
co-chief theater critic
of The New York Times.
>> GREEN: Hi, Susan.
>> HASKINS: Hi, Jesse.
And as we know, there is
a wonderful revival of
Edward Albee's
"Three Tall Women,"
now on Broadway.
And we are so honored to be
joined by all three of the
tall women.
We have Glenda Jackson.
You play "A."
>> JACKSON: I do.
>> HASKINS: Laurie Metcalf. "B."
>> METCALF: "B."
>> HASKINS: And Alison Pill,
the plucky "C."
>> METCALF: [ Laughs ]
>> GREEN: Welcome to
"Theater Talk."
As Susan just indicated, your
character names are a little
unusual, "A," "B," and "C."
I wonder, is it fair to say,
and any of you jump in and
answer this, that despite those
different names, you are
playing variations or
aspects of the same woman?
Does that seem a fair way
to look at it?
>> JACKSON: Well, in as much
as -- as their ages are
markedly different.
And their development as
human beings, in that sense,
is defined for you.
But one of the really
interesting things about the
play is how you kind of pick up
clues about your character
from the others.
>> GREEN: So, as part of
process in rehearsals,
did you have to spend a lot of
time watching each other?
I mean, of course, you do in
rehearsals, watch each other.
>> JACKSON: Well, we've
nowhere else to go.
We're all on stage all the time.
[ Laughter ]
>> GREEN: But was it important
to you to identify in each
other aspects of this shared
character that you would want to
use in your own development of
your part of the character?
Or was it more important to
separate yourselves?
Or did you not even think along
those terms?
>> METCALF: Well, the play is
in two parts, so we morph into
the one character
in the second half.
The first half, as I recall,
in the rehearsal room,
gave us the most trouble,
finding those relationships.
But Joe Mantello, our director,
early on, also did want to
look occasionally for a gesture,
maybe, that was similar
between the three and then
repeat it in the second act
again.
Not to help the audience figure
out where we've gone,
who we've evolved into by the
second half, but I think just
those little, tiny callbacks
must be kind of fascinating for
an audience to watch.
They're just very gentle and
go by.
They're like, "Oh, I've seen
that little penguin walk before.
Where was that?
Oh, yeah, I remember that."
>> GREEN: So, did you think of
the -- while working on the
first act as if it were a
separate play from the second
act, particularly, for your
two characters, "B" and "C,"
who you could say they change
the most between the first act
and the second act?
>> PILL: Well, yeah, because
we're different people.
The tricky thing about the
first part is how realistic
to have made it.
It's deceptively realistic
language.
It's a deceptively realistic
situation of this homemade and
this, you know, lawyer in the
same room with this old woman,
but it's not -- it's heightened.
It's not reality.
The second part, because it is
all in this kind of fantastical
limbo, and we are all very clear
on who we are, which is
the same woman,
the clarity of that was obvious,
kind of from the begin--
I mean, from the first read.
Not that it hasn't changed and
morphed as we've gotten to know
each other and been able to
call back, you know, gestures
between us and hear the echoes
from the first part.
But I wouldn't say they're
separate plays, because it is
all one.
But it was much harder to deal
with that...deceptive realism.
>> JACKSON: He uses such very
simple words, and he uses
them constantly.
And he structures sentences
in completely different ways,
but still using the same words.
And we found it --
I think my colleagues will
agree -- absolutely exhausting.
It's a play with virtually
no physical extension at all.
But we were absolutely
exhausted, because your brain is
constantly on this treadmill.
Because, you know, the --
I mean, well, I still do it,
I sometimes chew up.
But nonetheless, you know, you
think, "I've just said that,
haven't I?
Didn't I just say --
No, no, I didn't say that."
And so the repercussions of
that -- I mean, I know it sounds
ridiculous, but, I mean, they're
quite profound when you're
actually trying to find the
character.
Do you know what I mean?
And the relationship with the
other characters, that was
really, really tough.
>> HASKINS: Does "chew up"
mean "forget"?
>> JACKSON: Yeah.
>> HASKINS: Yeah.
>> JACKSON: Or "mangle" is
another word.
You know what mangling does?
>> HASKINS: Yes.
>> JACKSON: They save me.
Every time I've chewed up or
mangled, they save me.
>> METCALF: No, I think you've
looped right back around
and found where you were.
>> HASKINS: Now, 'cause
you have what is a huge
almost monologue
in the first part.
>> JACKSON: Oh, but we all do.
Oh, in the first part.
>> HASKINS: No, in the first
part, in the first part.
There were times -- I mean,
Mr. Albee's no longer around
to check on you.
Could you just chew up and go
off and it wouldn't matter?
>> JACKSON: What do you mean,
chew up and go off?
You mean, go off the stage? No.
>> HASKINS: No, no, no.
If you get lost in your lines,
and --
>> JACKSON: Well, as I say, they
save me.
They always come up with
something.
Then I think, "Oh, yeah, I know
where I am now.
Thank you, ladies."
>> GREEN: But that is a kind of
realism at the same time.
I mean, if you actually listen
to the way we speak in real
life -- and I'm also thinking
of the way my grandparents
spoke at a certain point --
that kind of cycling was quite
realistic, and...doesn't make
it easier to memorize or --
>> JACKSON: I mean, that's -- I
mean, what Alison said.
That is the trap of the first --
what we think of the first act.
It is not realistic.
It isn't real in that sense.
Realism -- I mean, there is
a realty to it, of course, but
it can delude you into thinking
that it's realistic
in that way, and it isn't.
>> METCALF: I found the
first act -- probably you also,
Alison -- really difficult,
because our characters are there
to serve "A," and she's telling
us stories, and my character has
heard them a million times.
And so there was trying
to find that fine line about
when am I listening, when am
I not, when am I supplying
answers to things that I've
heard over and over again.
Because at first, we were very
wary.
>> PILL: Just attentive.
>> METCALF: We were just being
attentive.
Just, you know, very still,
listening, hanging on
every word.
And then, as a group, we
decided, well, it's not really
the reality of the scene,
and so, what happens if there --
can you -- can you play a game
of Solitaire and still be
doing your job and not be
taking away from the scene,
but adding to the experience
for the audience, of,
"Oh, they've -- you know --"
>> PILL: Like, the importance
of the tedium.
>> METCALF: Yeah.
>> PILL: You know, like, that's
the real...
You cannot enter into the
second part until you've
experienced yourself going like,
"Again?"
Because that is how we deal
with old people.
We want them to shut up
and go away.
[ Laughter ]
You know, for the most --
Like, you're just like, "Ugh!
Fine!"
But then you peel back that
layer of, you know, kind of
doddering old lady, and there's
this vital, amazing, brilliant,
ambitious woman underneath it
who's been there the whole time.
And I think that's the -- that
journey of the play and how
important it is to be able to
be trying to write off this
woman for, you know.
>> HASKINS: Because in the
first part, you're kind of mean.
>> PILL: "Kind of"?
>> HASKINS: You are abusing.
I'll say, my mother is well into
her 90s, and I'm watching your
character and thinking,
"Thank God my mother's not like
that." [ Laughs ]
She's a kindly old lady.
But you're giving everybody --
I guess that's Albee's mother
he's portrayed -- a very bad
time.
>> JACKSON: Well, he says,
he wrote the script
that we worked on, that --
I'm paraphrasing here the
last three lines, that
during her life, his mother's
life -- and as we know, he was
adopted -- during his mother's
life, he never met anyone who
liked her.
He never met anyone who saw the
play who disliked her.
What have I done?
>> GREEN: Yes.
Were you at all interested in
bringing into your work
any of the bi-- the actual
biography of Albee's mother,
or was everything you needed in
the words that he provided
in the text?
>> JACKSON: Everything's in
the text.
>> PILL: But it's also --
I mean, everything's in the
text, and that was their life.
>> GREEN: So, knowing that you
didn't really have to do
external work...
>> METCALF: No, I just find it
really grounding when you know
that every line that they're
saying at different ages
happened and was told to Edward.
>> GREEN: Even the bracelet
story?
>> METCALF: I assume so.
>> GREEN: I'm not going to let
viewers know what that story is.
They'll have to get it for
themselves.
>> PILL: I imagine all of it
is --
>> METCALF: Yeah, the affair
with the groom.
>> PILL: Yeah.
>> GREEN: Speaking from the
audience perspective,
the social interaction that
you were describing of,
not just sort of serving this
woman "A," but having your own
lives that are reacting with it
in boredom or annoyance or
whatever it might be
is where the audience gets to
have a great deal of fun.
Which is a long-winded way of
saying it's a comedy, among
many other things.
I've rarely laughed out loud
so much at a, basically, tragic
vision of a woman's
life and of human aging.
Did you have to think about it
as a comedy in that way, or did
you let that all arise from
doing the work of finding
these women?
>> JACKSON: Well, you hope you
get the laughs.
I mean, your greatest educator,
teacher is an audience.
>> METCALF: Yeah.
>> JACKSON: And they tell
you whether you've got it right
or not.
But the inherent humor in it,
I mean, is there.
I mean, it's just, you know.
>> HASKINS: Well, that's why
they like your -- they like your
mother, but not his real mother,
because you have the great
jokes.
>> JACKSON: Well, I mean,
I would imagine that she had
those great jokes, too.
I mean, one of the members
of the cast, I mean, knew Albee,
worked with him a lot, and knew
his mother.
And clearly, she was -- I mean,
she was a popular social,
you know, butterfly in her
own particular strata of
society.
And we see it now.
I mean, you know, you see people
where their standing is such
that they really only ever meet
the same kind of people,
and that was the world that
she inhabited.
And they were -- they could be
quite viciously funny, I think.
>> GREEN: This is a play
about a woman, or several women,
by a man.
Laurie, you recently played,
um...
>> METCALF: Nora.
>> GREEN. Nora in
"A Doll's Life, Part 2."
>> JACKSON: "Doll's House."
>> "Doll's House."
Sorry, I'm thinking of the
musical sequel for
"The Doll's..."
>> HASKINS: He doesn't want
to think about --
>> GREEN: Very, very sorry for
that.
"Doll's House, Part 2."
You've played Mary Tyrone in
"Long Day's Journey."
Other -- those are other
great female roles
written by men.
And you've also recently been in
a movie with a great female
role written by a woman.
>> HASKINS: And Alison was in
"Blackbird" -- oh, my God.
Talk about female roles written
by men. [ Laughs ]
>> GREEN: And then we can also
weave into this discussion the
"King Lear" that Miss Jackson
recently did.
The kernel of a question in
here is, given that these
are individual males -- not
all males that have written
these parts -- and an individual
woman -- not all women --
is it still possible to see
a difference in the way a woman
creates a female character
and the way the men who have
written those other plays did?
Does that make any sense
as a question?
>> JACKSON: None whatever.
>> GREEN: Yeah, I could see that
you weren't going there.
>> METCALF: I don't think that
in the three that you mentioned,
for me, I don't think that
I could have 100% said this
is written by either a man
or a woman.
I don't think that I could.
"Lady Bird," maybe that one,
I would've ventured a guess that
that was written by a woman.
>> HASKINS: Oh, I was seeing
clips of it yesterday.
I certainly think that cries
out, "Written by a woman!"
[ Laughs ]
>> METCALF: Well, it was very
personal, and all of the
characters in that movie were
so three-dimensional and --
>> GREEN: Well, that's what
I mean -- the authenticity
of the writing.
Not that Albee is not
authentic.
>> PILL: And I guess that's the
thing, is that while looking
at -- looking at this play,
in particular, he has studied
and been obsessed with his
mother, but he's also studied
and been obsessed with himself.
>> GREEN: Mm.
>> HASKINS: Ah.
>> PILL: And that self-knowledge
that comes through.
I mean, his maturity in dealing
with his mother is something
I don't think 99% of humans
are capable of.
>> GREEN: Well, I don't know
that he was, either.
I mean, he is in the play.
But if you --
>> PILL: No, I don't think --
But, I mean, just the ability
to write about it in this --
in that kind of mature way.
Do I think --
I mean, he was also, you know,
somebody impossible to get along
with, from most people's
perspectives, and also, again,
viciously funny and...
So, I think -- I mean, I think,
all of this to say, I think it
does come down to the
individual, and I think it does
come down to writing these
personal things.
And so you could say "Lady Bird"
couldn't be written by a man.
Of course it couldn't.
Because a man didn't grow up
in Sacramento with, you know.
[ Laughs ]
Wasn't a teenage girl.
>> JACKSON: Carrying on this
idea, because you mentioned
Laurie doing
"Long Day's Journey,"
for which she justifiably --
Regrettably, I didn't see it,
but she got absolutely rave
notices for doing.
But there's O'Neill, who is
writing a play about his family,
and absolutely defines the
errors, the faults that caused
that family to be
the way it was.
He had that knowledge of his
own family, and he proceeded to
re-create it for himself.
He learned absolutely nothing
when it came to his own family.
I mean, it was another
mishmash 'em and it was,
you know, terrible disasters.
So, there's something here,
which is really, really
fascinating, in one sense, that
you know and you learn
absolutely nothing.
>> GREEN: I think there's
a false notion somehow that
plays better the author by
allowing them to express
and get rid of their demons,
but it doesn't seem in these
great plays like they actually
do get rid of them, but they
just clarify them for other
people.
>> JACKSON: They can share them
with us.
I mean, we can see them, but
they are still left on that
lonely desert island.
But then, that's true of
everybody who's a creative
spirit, isn't it?
I mean, just think about it.
You're a writer.
Well, you know, and that
blank page stretches to
infinity, doesn't it?
>> GREEN: Oh, yes.
>> JACKSON: Well, you know,
you're a composer.
I mean, those five lines -- God,
do they ever end?
No.
A canvas -- where is its edges?
Whereas we who are privileged
to work in plays, we may not
have an absolutely detailed map,
but at least we vaguely know
the borders.
>> HASKINS: Being a writer seems
so courageous,
in a certain sense.
I mean, I know the great ones
are compelled to do it, but what
a lonely, frightening place
it can be.
>> JACKSON: Well, absolutely.
>> HASKINS: You worked with
Edward Albee.
You were just talking about --
>> JACKSON: I was in a play
which he purported to direct.
[ Laughter ]
>> HASKINS: Won't you tell us
about that?
'Cause she was discussing
his reputation, but you
experienced it.
>> JACKSON: He was, with all
due respect, a completely
enclosed human being.
He -- you can't walk in a glass
case, can you?
But there was absolutely no,
absolutely no kind of
human interchange.
And, of course, I blew it on the
first day of rehearsal.
'Cause the couple come back and
they're drunk --
>> HASKINS: "Virginia Woolf,"
right.
>> JACKSON: "Virginia Woolf,"
right -- me and John Lithgow
come on to
wherever we were rehearsing.
And Albee said "And,
you know, she should" -- I'm
paraphrasing again -- "She
should stumble.
I mean, she's got to put her
coat down."
I said, "Hang on a minute.
Doesn't she live here?
She'd know where the light
switch was, wouldn't she?"
[ Laughter ]
That was not the right approach
to take.
But in a way, I had
sympathy for him, because,
of course, "Virginia Woolf" was
his greatest curse, as well as
his greatest, you know, prize,
in a sense, because everything
else was compared to that play.
And we were doing it in
Los Angeles.
And, of course, that play then
had the Burton and Taylor logo
all over it.
So, for him, you know, I think
that was something very
difficult.
But I think his honesty in
the play we're doing is just
staggering.
>> GREEN: I didn't work with
him, I wasn't a friend of his,
but I interviewed him many
times later in his life.
And I think it's
relevant to "Three Tall Women,"
my experience, in that as he
aged, I feel like that
glass case he almost wore began
to disintegrate.
And something that moves me in
"Three Tall Women," it's tragic
in a way, I mean, in the way
that life is tragic, but there's
also something wonderful and
brave about the way "A"
begins to accept what's
going to -- what
the next steps are and death.
It's a play about death.
And I felt that something
wonderful happened to him, too.
>> JACKSON: Well, we had this
really very moving letter that
was sent to us, I think, by the
chief executive of his trust,
wasn't it, who brought to see
the play the woman who had been
Albee's carer at the last part
of his life.
And they had this kind of
relationship -- he would fire
her, and they'd go to
extraordinary lengths not to
fire her.
Anyway, she came to see the
play, and she was in tears
throughout the whole of what we
think of as the second act.
Because, yes, I mean,
obviously, those kinds of
relationships became available
to him towards the end of his
life.
I mean, you mentioned "Lear."
One of the interesting things
for me was, when I was a member
of Parliament, I would visit
old people's homes and
day centers and things of
that nature,
and the barriers, the gender
barriers just begin to fray.
I mean, the extreme ends
of life -- age, rather.
The older we get, they just
become murky and foggy, and they
split and they break.
And exactly the same way,
you know, when children are
born, we teach them that they're
boys or girls, don't we?
Do you know what I mean?
There aren't those gender
barriers there.
And that's, I think, one of the
things that's interesting
about age.
>> GREEN: And in
"Lear," the fact that it was
written as a man becomes
unimportant, in a way, if you --
>> JACKSON: Well, nobody ever
mentioned it.
I mean, I have to put it in the
context that there have been
brave companies in my country
who've really taken on the
gender bender issue, and have
fought, and I think, won that
battle, you know, doing all the
histories women, all-female cast
and things of that nature --
the Shakespearean histories.
And nobody ever, ever
mentioned it.
It was never an issue.
No member of the audience said
it in any way, shape, or form
to me.
Nobody else did.
But then it is
just a remarkable play.
It's such a privilege to be
allowed to do it.
>> GREEN: It would seem that the
gender would be the last
interesting issue in that play.
>> JACKSON: Yeah. Exactly.
>> HASKINS: Did you work with
Albee?
You didn't work with him, but
did you work on his plays?
>> METCALF: I've never done an
Albee play, and I never had the
opportunity to meet him.
>> HASKINS: Don't you want to
play Martha sometimes?
>> METCALF: Oh. Well...
who doesn't?
Pick your brain about that,
about how intense that
must have been.
>> HASKINS: I don't know if
you'd be a good Martha, Alison.
I'd see you as a Honey.
>> GREEN: Well...
>> HASKINS: You seem just
too nice.
>> JACKSON: Hang on a minute
here.
>> HASKINS: Maybe later.
>> JACKSON: Just a minute.
You said, before we came into
this studio --
>> HASKINS: Yes?
>> JACKSON: You justifiably
heaped praised on her
performance, right?
And that's what everybody does.
Everybody says how marvelous she
is.
We -- to go back to when
I did "Virginia Woolf,"
Cynthia Nixon's understudy
came to see the play
the other night.
Now, she was the original "C"
in the first production at
the English language theatre
in Vienna all those years ago.
And I said to her, because she'd
been, you know, there with us in
"Virginia Woolf," I said,
"Did he manage to crack a smile
at you or anything?"
This is Albee we're talking
about.
No, she said, "No, but he gave
me notes," and I said, "Oh,
that's interesting.
What was it?"
I can't remember the second one
he gave her.
The first one was, "I don't want
the audience to like her."
>> HASKINS: Interesting.
And you are very likeable.
>> JACKSON: Go to work on that.
>> GREEN: To the extent -- and
I don't want to caricature
actress, but to the extent that
there's a natural tendency to
please audiences, it must be
useful to be freed from that,
by being told --
>> JACKSON: Oh, no, it's more
subtle than that.
I mean, A, I don't actually
agree with you, that we want
audiences to like us.
We want them to listen, and we
want them to laugh in the right
places and be quiet in the
right places.
We don't necessarily want them
to like us.
But, I mean, that was
a profoundly important thing,
I think, to say to an actress --
"I don't want the audience to
like her."
>> HASKINS: Do you agree,
Laurie Metcalf?
>> METCALF: What I find really
fascinating is, like, take "A's"
character -- the more abusive
that she is, obviously, it's
super-funny.
>> HASKINS: Yes. Yes.
>> METCALF: But
it's also weirdly endearing to
me, in a way, that she's --
she's alienating everybody
and just plowing forward,
plowing forward.
And we see, you know, how she is
going to be at the very
end, with her son, who's kissing
her for the chauffeur and the
maid.
And she's aware that she's
doing it and still can't stop.
>> JACKSON: And doesn't care.
>> METCALF: And I think that --
and doesn't care.
And the audience,
I think finds it, um...
It makes an audience
sympathetic, I think.
>> HASKINS: That's the trick.
>> JACKSON: Yeah, well, as he
said, you know, he'd never met
anyone who saw the play who
disliked her.
>> HASKINS: Now, I saw the play
originally, and Marian Seldes
played your part
so radically different.
I mean, the wonderful
Marian Seldes, but you come at
it from a radically different
perspective.
>> METCALF: Yeah, I wouldn't
know, because I haven't seen it,
and I should -- I should go
look it up after our run.
[ Laughter ]
Because I know that there is --
>> HASKINS: Yeah, she didn't run
around in sneakers and wasn't --
She didn't have your thing.
Your -- that you're --
>> METCALF: Well, you know,
knowing, I think that --
because we are going to morph,
you know, later in the second
half, that, kind of an acting
challenge was, "Well, how
different can I be, then?"
Let's work backwards.
So, if I know I'm going to look
like this in the second half,
what would be the extreme
opposite of that?
>> HASKINS: And not only your
clothes, but you're very casual.
>> METCALF: Yeah, the
body language.
>> HASKINS: Body language, and
then you're so different
because you're so buttoned-up
in the beginning.
Now, we have the
famous one minute left.
So, I throw it to you,
and then to --
>> GREEN: Well, great.
I was just thinking back to --
you alluded to Peter Brook,
and I read something that
you wrote that you said
about him, that "Working
with is like coming across an
oasis in the desert.
Like all great directors, he
creates the kind of world in
which everyone's responsible
for the whole play."
>> JACKSON: Absolutely.
>> GREEN: And that seemed
like such a wonderful idea.
And I don't know --
>> JACKSON: Well, it was
wonderful to work in that
context.
You know, I mean, he --
All good directors always know
what they don't want, and they
expect you to show them
what they do.
And the great thing -- one of
the great things about him
is he never, ever let you go
down the wrong path
for too long.
I mean, one of my fellow actors
in that original company said,
you know, the great thing about
him is he just takes you --
he stops you going down the
wrong path.
His favorite word, actually, is
"No."
[ Laughter ]
He'll go, "Oh, no. No."
>> GREEN: So, there's the "No,"
which is helpful.
But there's also a feeling
of society
or of the group work, that you
are all in this together.
>> JACKSON: Yes, we are.
I mean, everybody's responsible
for the whole piece,
whatever it is.
It's not dependent on what how
much you have to say or how
little you have to say.
You are all equally responsible
for trying to make whatever
it is you're engaged in the
best it can possibly be.
I mean, actually, Liv Ullmann
gave me a perfect description
of what really good directors
can do.
She was in a play -- film -- she
was playing a very vain woman.
She had to walk down a corridor.
There was no dialogue.
And as she walked down the
corridor, she checked her
appearance in every
reflective image.
He'd set up a camera where if
she chose to do that, he got it.
That's perfect, ain't it?
Ain't that the sort of person
we all want to work with all
the time?
Yeah.
>> GREEN: There's our perfect
minute.
>> HASKINS: And you are all in
it together in
"Three Tall Women,"
a magnificent ensemble
performance.
And that guy, I'm not --
[ Laughs ]
>> GREEN: Shh!
>> HASKINS: But it's just
wonderful, and I really
appreciate you all coming.
Alison Pill, Glenda Jackson,
and Laurie Metcalf,
thank you for coming back.
>> JACKSON: Oh, thank you.
>> HASKINS: Lovely to see you.
Thank you, Jesse Green.
>> GREEN: Thank you, Susan.
>> JACKSON: [ Laughs ]
It's Mutual Admiration Society.
♪♪
>> HASKINS: Our thanks to the
Friends of "Theater Talk"
for their significant
contribution to this production.
"Theater Talk" is made possible
in part by...
>> ANNOUNCER: We welcome your
questions or comments for
"Theater Talk."
Thank you.
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